Derrick Rose for MVP: Is it too late for a debate?

I don’t mean to be a stick in the mud, but I’ve been shocked by the uniformity of opinion when it comes to this year’s MVP race. Everyone seems to think that Derrick Rose is either most deserving, or has built so much momentum that resistance is futile. Rose’s MVP buzz reached it’s zenith a couple weeks ago, and by now most are fastened low and snug across the waist into the Derrick Rose bandwagon. The Chicago point guard is having a great season, but the problem for me is that some other guys are too.

Shouldn’t there be some robust debate as to whether Rose is more deserving than LeBron James, who is again posting the league’s best statistical season for the only team in the top five in defensive and offensive efficiency?

Or what about Dwight Howard, who is a more efficient and nearly as prolific a scorer as Rose, while pulling in 14 rebounds and somehow leading the Magic to a top five defensive team despite the absence of a single teammate who is an even average defender?

I’m not asking for everyone to abandon Rose-mania, but to at least offer some opposition, some debate, something that will squelch my sense that Rose’s less than airtight MVP campaign is nothing more than a PR buoyed Titanic.

Here’s an outline of the debate I’ve been having in my head. Let’s start with the leakiest beam on the Cruise Ship MVP Rose:

Pro: Rose has gone from a very poor shooter to one with the mechanics and confidence to consistently hit jumpshots from all over the court. Coupled with an ultra explosive first step, Rose now has the ability to create a viable shot opportunity at any time, and from almost anywhere. This kid worked hard, rounded out his game considerably, and is now an unstoppable force. This is really important on his team, because with the exception of the oft-injured Carlos Boozer, they don’t have another reliable shot-creator.

Con: Rose is still, at best, a slightly above average shooter. Amongst comparable shot-creating wings, Rose shoots a lower percentage from beyond the arc than LeBron, and his overall field goal percentage of 43.9% is lower than Kobe Bryant, Monta Ellis, Russell Westbrook, Dirk Nowitzki, Dwyane Wade, LeBron, Kevin Durant, and Carmelo Anthony. He’s a more efficient offensive player than he was, and his work should be widely lauded, but he’s still more Monta Ellis than Dwyane Wade. While LeBron benefits from more talented teammates this season, last year he put up even better numbers with worse teammates.

Pro: But, you dolt, Rose’s constant probing of the defense also creates tip-ins and other positive ancillary plays that, even beyond his 8 assists per game, help his team put up points. Also, Rose creates a greater percentage of his team’s points than any other player. Let me spell it out: he is a one man offense on the league’s best team.

Con: Then, my hard fact avoiding friend, why are the Bulls, who have at least as much talent as say, the Nuggets, Jazz or Suns, rank behind those teams and half the league in offensive efficiency? Rose is a volume scorer. Howard, on the other hand, is scoring just 1.8 points less on 7 fewer shots. He draws more fouls, and dominates the paint, making life much, much easier for his limited offensive teammates. If LeBron doesn’t seem as vital on the offensive end as Rose, don’t let the work Howard does off the ball, screening, sealing, fool you into think he’s idle. Also, according to Synergy, Howard scores more reliably out of isolation, and the hockey assists generated from his post-ups are an enormous part of a good offense.

Why not Dwight?

Pro: Well, those teams have more efficient offensive systems. The Bulls offense has looked much better since they’ve spread the ball around with Boozer and Noah healthy, keep in mind his best teammates have been his most injured. I don’t know about those isolation statistics, because they don’t factor in all the great things that happen with Rose penetrates. And Rose makes huge plays at the end of games on offense, remember than jumper he hit after shaking down Dwyane Wade on March 6?

Con: There’s no denying Rose has played big in big games. But his team’s defense has played pretty damn well too. Despite his size, quickness, and vastly improved appetite for defensive effort, Rose is still not impacting the game defensively like James or Howard. The Bulls’ defensive scheme, like the Celtics, is built on the shoulders of their big men. When Rose is off the court, the Bulls play better D. The Magic design their entire defense around Howard’s ability to protect the paint, and James impacts the game by rebounding and making more plays off the ball than Rose.

Pro: Give me a break. You’re going on Rose’s old rep as a loose defender. He’s an emotional leader on the court for a team that plays together, on defense, better than any team in the league. Plus, the vaunted Howard’s raw defensive plus minus is actually negative. Pure statistics may not back it up, but Rose’s commitment to improving himself and holding himself accountable on that end is a big part of why the Bulls are where they are. Also, the Bulls have the most wins. He’s their best player. Why are we debating this?

Con: From an emotional storyline perspective, there’s no competition with Rose. He is, by all accounts, a genuinely great guy. He’s even “overcome his athleticism” by becoming a reasonably skilled shooter. But if this award is for the best player, it should go to James, and if it’s for the player who most improves and impacts his team, it should go to Howard. The “just wins” argument reduces the Bull’s brilliant bench and a winning defensive philosophy to the periphery. It’s a rhetorical strategy that obscures the actual individual impact of individual players. Also, his team only has two more wins than LeBron’s.

Pro: Your face is reductive. Rose is the kind of young star the NBA should be cultivating. Basketball is about heart, and no one plays with more heart and embodies the spirit of leadership more than Rose. He’s this season’s MVP, just ask his teammates. To ignore this fact would go in the face of decades of evidence that facilitating positive team chemistry yields cold hard wins.

Con: Fascinating. So I assume we’re glossing over Win Shares? What about how LeBron (5) and Howard (5) have both won more Player of the Weeks than Rose (2)? And unlike his primary competition, Rose has yet to win a Player of the Month award. If Rose is a better teammate than LeBron (likely) and Howard (maybe), does that propel him past their superior seasons? Also, your face reeks of Sauerkraut and sausage.

Pro: Well my skeptical, darkhearted friend, if they were better teammates, maybe their teams would have more wins. Like, more than the Bulls. Good vibes matter. As LeBron said, Karma’s a bitch!

Con: (taking deep breaths…) Whatever, as long as everyone is clear that he’s not the best player, as defined by having the most positive impact on his team’s season.

Pro: Pfshhfft! Most wins, best team, best player. MVP.

Indescribable sounds are uttered. Blood vessels burst from temples. Fists are brandished menacingly…

For the record, my vote, cast into the internet’s invisible ocean, goes to Dwight Howard. Today, anyways.

Follow Beckley Mason on Twitter!

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@:Keith Hardeman: "My case for Rose is that he is the only candidate that is in the running for ALL of those cases AND he has been consistent and a true leader for his team!" This is not true. Dirk meets all these criteria as well (the Mavs have one fewer win than the Bulls), but no one talks about him. "People want to give it to Ginobilli because he is on the team with the best record, but then what about statistics?" Also not true. People want to give it to ROSE because he's "the best player on the best team," but as you pointed out Ginobili is the person that fits this description. "People want to give it to Lebron for statistics, but what about winning particularly against elite teams and even more specifically against the Bulls where he’s 0-3? Let’s also not forget that he plays with 2 other All-Stars!" When did head-to-head become a criteria for the MVP? What about winning particularly against teams that you should be beating and even more specifically against the Knicks where Rose is 0-2? Let's also not forget that he plays with a significantly better 4-12 than the Miami Heat. "Kobe’s case is hurt because he has not been consistent through out the year, and he also plays along side an All-Star in Gasol." Again, you've indiscriminately decided to rule out someone for the MVP because they play next to an All-Star. You might as well create a shortlist of MVP candidates after the All-Star break based on the list of teams with only one All-Star. "IMO Howard is the only other player in contention on all levels with Rose, but I think Rose beats him out simply because Rose as the leader has raised his team to the next level. Did you see last night where Howard received his 6th foul and then proceeds to throw the ball down court for a technical! LEADERSHIP is my only knock on Howard; his team is not bad by any stretch, but they just don’t seem to “want” it bad enough!" Did you see the March 3 game against the Heat where Howard had 14 and 18, with 5 blocks and 5 assists? He seemed to "lead" his team just fine that night. Please don't refer to one specific game when making an argument about the MVP, and DEFINITELY don't attribute a team's "wanting" it enough to a single player. "Again, I think Rose should win the MVP if decided today, but I have no problem if he doesn’t win it. What I have an issue with is for people to say it is absurd for him to be in the running! He IS in the running and it’s not just fans who feel this way; many analyst, coaches, and players (2 of Lebron’s own team mates) feel that Rose is the MVP so how can it be absurd!" This is the part of your argument that makes the most sense. Rose is quite clearly a part of the MVP conversation, along with LeBron, Dwight, and Dirk. To most observers, the biggest factor in the Bulls' rise this season has not been Derrick Rose, but rather their incredible improvement in defensive efficiency, which should be attributed to Tom Thibodeau (in my opinion, the clear Coach of the Year). Rose's role as the key offensive cog on the team as well as his ability to keep the team rolling during Boozer's and Noah's various absences (as well as his role in the overall defensive overhaul) makes him a very good MVP contender. James is an MVP contender because he's simply got the best numbers and (statistically) has individually done more for his team than anyone else. Howard and Nowitzki are both in the running because they're by far the best players on their own teams and have been very consistent all year long in helping their teams stay in the top 10. Howard, however, is also the defensive focal point of his team and almost single-handedly makes his team an above-average defensive team, unlike the Bulls where the team defense is a coach-instilled philosophy and is due to the diligence of all five players. Howard has also had a similar offensive impact as Rose (less of a playmaker but a much more efficient scorer), but because he has worse teammates and his team has fewer wins, Rose is hailed as the better player. My MVP ballot today: 1. Howard 2. James 3. Rose 4. Dirk (Bias admission: I'm a big Lakers fan.)

After reading all the arguments against Rose they seem to mainly consist of a SINGLE merit to rate the MVP winner! It's either best stats only, winning only, or most important to their team only. My case for Rose is that he is the only candidate that is in the running for ALL of those cases AND he has been consistent and a true leader for his team! People want to give it to Ginobilli because he is on the team with the best record, but then what about statistics? People want to give it to Lebron for statistics, but what about winning particularly against elite teams and even more specifically against the Bulls where he's 0-3? Let's also not forget that he plays with 2 other All-Stars! Kobe's case is hurt because he has not been consistent through out the year, and he also plays along side an All-Star in Gasol. IMO Howard is the only other player in contention on all levels with Rose, but I think Rose beats him out simply because Rose as the leader has raised his team to the next level. Did you see last night where Howard received his 6th foul and then proceeds to throw the ball down court for a technical! LEADERSHIP is my only knock on Howard; his team is not bad by any stretch, but they just don't seem to "want" it bad enough! Again, I think Rose should win the MVP if decided today, but I have no problem if he doesn't win it. What I have an issue with is for people to say it is absurd for him to be in the running! He IS in the running and it's not just fans who feel this way; many analyst, coaches, and players (2 of Lebron's own team mates) feel that Rose is the MVP so how can it be absurd!

If the Spurs continue to falter and the Lakers continue to roll, and the Bulls lose just one more game, the Lakers could conceivably have the best record in the league. Does that have any affect on the Coach of the Year/MVP voting?

Bulls have 3 all star level young players aside from Rose. And Depth, heaps of it. And good coaching and team cohesion. LeBron's numbers are quite good as usual but not quite good enough to warrent a MVP, considering who he is playing alongside. Dwight Howard has been making it happen for Orlando all season on both ends of the floor, getting them 46 wins thus far. He therefore would get my vote for the Most VALUABLE player for the 2010/11 season.

dirk for mvp every statistical metric supports it he passes the eye test when he was hurt the mavs looked like a lottery team. mavs are a contender he is shooting a career high in FG%. If you took nash from the suns or paul from the hornets or howard from the magic they would be lottery teams if you took rose from the bulls they would still make the playoffs. M.V.P stands for most valuable player not most talented or best player on the best team or best late game player . But derek will probably win its a feel good story he is now the nbas darling he is a lock

@J.Ricardo Maybe it seems wrong. In your opinion the voters have gotten the MVP award wrong. If you perceive the MVP award to be based on pure statistics and 'replace-ability', you've made your argument for Howard. But what does the MVP award mean? People disagree over the true measure of meaning of 'most valuable' but the award is usually awarded based on the parameters I described.

"The future NBA MVPs final 5 minutes of Sat. Nights game. Something your dork stats dont show." It's funny when someone makes fun of stats, and then goes on to confirm why people that value stats look at him like he's an idiot. Here's a hint: the last four minutes of a particular game of your choosing doesn't tell us much of anything. And by the way, I am very aware of him playing that well that 4th quarter.

"Team record is easy to scoff at but there is a strong historical precedent for rewarding the league’s top team’s best player with the award." Arguing for an idea's validity with 'this is how it's always been done' seems wrong. I realize that voters have constantly got the MVP award wrong. That's not a good reason to continue to do so.

Team record is easy to scoff at but there is a strong historical precedent for rewarding the league's top team's best player with the award. Of course as Pete astutely pointed out, this would mean Ginobili should get the award this year, despite the fact that he is not receiving serious MVP consideration from anybody. But among leading candidates (Rose, James, Howard) Rose's team has the best record, and notably, is 3-0 vs. the Heat.

Any honest and objective person needs to acknowledge that Rose is absolutely not having a better season than Howard. I won't even get into LBJ, because I realize they will not give it to him this year. Howard is having a better season statistically than Rose, and is EASILY as valuable to his team as Rose is. Replace Howard with an average center, and replace Rose with an average PG, and the discrepancy between the two teams' win totals would be even great. I'm not a Magic or Bulls fan.

How bad is everyone's short-term memory? Look, everyone agrees (or should agree--every bit is falsifiable and accurate) about this regarding Rose: he's an extremely versatile scorer, but he is only average in his efficiency at any of those modes of scoring; he is a good playmaker and rebounder for his position, but not among the very best at either; he's not among his team's best defenders. He is the focal point of the offense, but the thing that makes his team elite improves when he's off the court; however, everyone thinks he must be one of the best players in the league because they think his team "would be in the lottery without him." Doesn't that also describe, down to a T, what people thought about Carmelo Anthony before he was traded? And haven't the Nuggets, instead of falling into the lottery, been a better team without him, because they've improved their defense without losing any of the offense people assumed would go away when their versatile, high-usage/mid-efficiency scorer left? Does anybody think 'Melo is one of the most valuable players in the NBA anymore? Then why haven't we adjusted our evaluations in thinking about Rose? Incidentally, without Rose, the Bulls wouldn't become the Bucks--they're already a much better defensive team, and they play better D without Rose. Even if they lost offense, what they'd become is the 90s Knicks: a limited, predictable, but still basically competent offense (basically with Boozer in the Ewing role, Noah as Oakley, Deng as Starks), and a historically awesome, suffocating defense. That Knicks team was a perennial contender--and but for the long fingertips of Hakeen Olajuwon would've won the 1994 title in 6--so I doubt the Bulls would suffer so much from losing Rose.

Bulls fans are idiots. Despite all evidence presented they continue to repeat the same as their mantra. Does MVP mean most valuable? The Howard is most valuable to his team. Is it the player with the best stats,? Rose stats are inferior to not just two candidates but many more Is it the best player on the best team? Manu is in the team that wins the most. So the bulls have a great player who plays on a weaker conference who don't have the best record in the league and don't have the best player in the league, but they still crown him MVP just because. For any and every argument that you can make for rose there are plenty of better players than him. Why the infatuation? Would the bulls really be any different with Westbrook, Paul, or Williams?

The future NBA MVPs final 5 minutes of Sat. Nights game. Something your dork stats dont show. 4:09 Derrick Rose makes free throw 1 of 2 80-83 4:09 Derrick Rose makes free throw 2 of 2 81-83 3:36 Carlos Boozer makes layup (Derrick Rose assists) 83-83 2:50 83-87 Brandon Jennings shooting foul (Derrick Rose draws the foul) 2:50 Derrick Rose makes free throw 1 of 2 84-87 2:50 Derrick Rose makes free throw 2 of 2 85-87 2:28 Joakim Noah makes dunk (Derrick Rose assists) 87-87 1:53 Derrick Rose makes layup 89-87 1:07 Derrick Rose makes 13-foot jumper 91-87 0:42 Derrick Rose makes 14-foot jumper 93-87 0:29 Ronnie Brewer makes layup (Derrick Rose assists) 95-87 0:00 End of the 4th Quarter 0:00 End Game

Wait wait wait, we're giving Rose the award because his teammates are worse now? I guess Bird shouldn't have been MVP ever with all that talent around him, and how the hell did Michael win so many MVPs with Pippen, while Hakeem, Ewing and Robinson never had anyone nearly as talented?

"PS – He shoots the 3 and jumpers with regularity regardless of his ordinary % because it helps space the floor. Thibs would practically lean into him if he didn’t take those long range shots! Basketball 101." Billy, that's a silly statement. Shooting and missing is not an offensive strategy, and it doesn't help you win games. Since the all-star break, Rose is shooting 28% from 3, yet taking 5-6 3pts a game. That's hurting his team and costing them points, not spacing the floor.

Rose vs. James: the bulls have won all three games this year i think the fact that lebron's team never beat Rose's team eliminates James (and wade) from the "better than Rose" debate. This award is first and foremost about being on one of the elite winning teams and if your team was swept by another candidate's team you are simply out of luck. The winning argument also applies to Howard's Magic. Argue all you want there is a reason why Kevin Love with statistically amazing streak of double doubles is not in the MVP conversation.

The writer should re-read his article a few times and them maybe he will see the sarcasm dripping from each supposed "pro" for Rose's MVP case. First I would like to point out how the writer hastily mentioned the fact that of the top MVP candidates none of them have faced the lengthy injuries to it's most important players! The writer states that the teams wins are because of defense and that it's defense is built on the shoulders of it's big men, but Noah has missed 30+ games (and played at least 5 games with a thumb injury), and Boozer who also missed several games is noted by many as a sub-par defender! On this same note can we get some stats of Rose against the other elite PG's in the league, because going strictly off memory, I recall him shutting down D-Will and CP3 when they went head-to-head! And speaking of team members, the only other reasonable competition to Rose is D Howard as he truly is a man on an island! Lebron and Kobe both have fellow all-stars (2 in Lebron's case) to draw attention away from them or at least keep the defense honest. Rose is zero'ed in on EVERY GAME! Look at the last few tight games where the opposition KNEW Rose was going to take the final shot and they still couldn't stop him! And now we come to the point of being clutch in the crunch... i.e. the opposite of Lebron! If Lebron is supposed to be "THE MAN" and the clear MVP then where is he in the crunch when his team needs him? Of course the **** riders will point to the 1 or 2 games where he was scoring in the final seconds of a close game, but the majority of time he has failed and even he has admitted this! And if Lebron (and by association the Heat) are soooo good then why is their record against the other elite teams so bad? Is there any other elite team who has such a record against their peers? You would think the average would be about .500. Another point IN FAVOR of Rose for MVP is the fact that he IS the offense for the Bulls! No one talks about Kobe shooting alot of shots as a con for his MVP candidacy! Also of note, is not how you score but when you score! This comes back around to clutchness and being able to come up big when needed. Hitting shots not only when you can, but when you must!!! And finally the cherry on top... the Bulls who came into the season with most analyst figuring they would be the #4 seed in the East at best are now the #1 seed in the East and 2nd best team in the league record-wise! WINNING IS WHAT COUNTS!!! The Bulls - Derrick Rose's team - is winning; he is the captain of the ship, he is the offensive identity, and he is LEADING his team to victories with more than just his play! He's leading with character and sheer determination; two things Lebron knows nothing about!!! Now, these are the true pro's of why Derrick Rose is winning the MVP debate and it seems that the vocal minority wants to paint a different picture by being loud and sarcastic, but there must be SOMETHING to the validity of this argument as alot of analyst and fans feel the same way. We won't know the winner until the regular season is over and the votes are tallied, but opposite of what the writer of this article wants to portray, Derrick Rose for MVP is not silly or illogical. And I believe D-Rose will be the last man standing when it's all said and done, but one thing for sure is that he certainly has better prognostic capabilities than many who said the Heat would break the single season wins record! At the beginning of the season he said "why can't I be MVP?" And now he has alot of people asking themselves the same question - "why can't Derrick Rose be MVP?" To answer the question be honest (not sarcastic) and at the very least raise a valid argument FOR someone else instead of against Derrick Rose!

I think Rose is a deserving candidate, but would not be upset if Howard won (I'm a Bulls fan). I guess my only question with this year's MVP debate is has the debate really come 100% down to stats, and more recently, sabremetrics? I'm not discounting that stats do indicate which players are having great years, but there's also the eye test....which Rose passes with flying colors. He's not the most efficient player on offense, but he gets results (and wins) with it....he's had to force offense with some fairly offensive deficient players at his side (i mean how many games did Kurt Thomas and Keith Bogans start alongside him? should he defer to them? Is that what an MVP would do?). Like I said, I'm cool with Howard winning it even though his team has what? the 8th best record in the NBA despite the fact he's the most important player on BOTH offense and defense? But to say Rose's candidacy is a joke solely based on stats and not the big picture isn't right. at all.

It's true that the Bulls are all about defense, but without Derrick Rose we would be like the Milwaukee Bucks (great defense, no offense). He finds ways to get wins by doing whatever is needed - maybe that means driving a lot and taking (and missing) a lot of tough shots, which will result in free throws and second-chance points. He often has poor shooting nights, but he makes key plays and big shots at the end of games to push the Bulls over the edge. The team plays great defense, yes, but they still need someone who can get something going on the offensive end and can close the game. Rose does that. He does what is needed to get the win, regardless of what that looks like on a stat sheet. Another thing that cannot be overlooked - and cannot be quantified - is his influence over the team with regard to his work ethic and attitude. He plays through pain, works harder than everyone else, and takes criticism from his coach; as a result, the rest of the team follows suit. Luol Deng is playing through his thigh bruise because Derrick Rose played through stomach ulcers. Carlos Boozer will take Thibs' yelling because Derrick Rose takes it. Joakim Noah is going to work his ass off because Derrick Rose has been working his ass off all year. This kid's leadership cannot be quantified. The mindset, the chemistry of the team, is a major factor in their success - and it has everything to do with Rose. This is why it does matter that he is humble, hard-working, dedicated, and driven. Let me pose the question - does Dwight Howard's leadership help his teammates to work harder in practice, to give a better effort on the court, to take direction from their coach? How do you measure that quantitatively? Numbers are great, but you're leaving too much out of the picture if you try to boil everything down to a few stats. That is why qualitative research exists alongside quantitative research.

What statistics you say? Sounds like a Heat fan to me. Who knows better than his peers in the league? Its not just ESPN handing DRose the MVP award, its practically the entire league themselves saying he should win it...yet the recent backlash astounds me...haters...when your peers admit you've been MVP, just tell me, stat interrogations aside, who would know better? PS - He shoots the 3 and jumpers with regularity regardless of his ordinary % because it helps space the floor. Thibs would practically lean into him if he didn't take those long range shots! Basketball 101.

Yerp. I haven't seen any statistics that would lead one to put Rose in the MVP lead. Other than number of people who say he will win.

I agree that Rose is an unbelievable shot creator on the offensive end. The problem is, he's creating a lot of those shots for himself and then not finishing them. His shooting %'s are well below any of the other candidates, and he's getting worse, not better, as the season goes along. Since the ASG, he's shooting 28% on threes, but taking over 6 attempts a game. Given that his teammates shoot over 38% on threes, and that he has some good inside scorers as well, that's poor ball management. When he gets to the line (which he's become much better at this year), Rose is as productive on offense as anybody in the league. But too often he settles for long jumpers that he doesn't consistently hit. The Bulls' rise this year is first and foremost about Thib's effect on their defense - and they're essentially an inside-out defense. Noah, Gibson, and Asik have been ridiculously good at forcing misses without fouling (Bulls have committed fewer fouls than MIA, BOS, or ORL). Yeah, Rose has improved on D from "horrible" all the way to "good", and that's to be commended, but he's still not a defensive force the way Howard and LeBron are. I still haven't heard a reasonable reason to pick Rose that doesn't end up being about the team's record - and that's about their Thibs-charged defense far more than their Rose-led offense.

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